According to UNC, Tyler Hansbrough has elected to return and complete his wanton destruction of major Tar Heel scoring and rebounding records. Wayne Ellington will be joining Ty Lawson in the draft process without an agent. At this point I expect Ellington to eventually return and possibly Lawson as well.
All in all, getting Hansbrough back satisfies a small desire I had to see him break the all time scoring and rebounding marks at UNC while also trying to take down the ACC scoring mark held by J.J. Redick. In terms of the decisions by the other two, it is hard to fault them for getting out there in the process and seeing where it goes. Assuming they listen to the experts and make level headed decisions, in the end this is nothing but a postive move for both of them. You can also look at the fact that if they do indeed return they will be highly motivated to play at a high level and if that is properly channeled within the team UNC will be the favorite to win the title.
I will hold off on analyzing next year’s team until we know the final disposition of the two guards. The pre-draft camp will come at the end of May and the final date for withdrawl is 10 days before the draft. The reports from camp will likely tell us which way this will go.
Tar Heel Fan 
finally, i can start sleeping regularly!
thanx for the great news, 1 down, 2 more to go 🙂
Hansbrough is the one I wanted to stay the most.
It will be a long wait until the end of May, though…
Kind of bizarre the national poy is staying, but our most inconsistent player and another player who was injured for 25% of the season think they have a shot.
greatest day of my life. ever.
hey even if they don’t come back that player we have staying in hansbourough, that makes us a contender and with stellar freshman coming in we will have back court to beat and my best guess is will graves will be the shooting star next year, what does everyone on here think about ben’s chances? the other hansborough i mean it would make since althought i do ultimately seeing ty leaving next year and wayne coming back no mock draft has him high at all
Good luck to Lawson and Ellington. I think they are making a mistake but I hope whatever they eventually decide they do well.
They sure are going to be hurting for some outside shooting next year. I sure wish they had a great shooting guard coming in this year. I guess Green, Graves, Frasor etc will have to step up and get more consistent from the outside.
I’m extremely happy that Hansbrough is coming back. I haven’t liked a player that much since Jamison was at unc.
Just remember who stepped up when Ty was out with his injury. Wayne also played a big part, but Tyler was the MAN. Glad to hear he’s back, but would like all three in Carolina blue next season. If not, best of luck to whoever goes to the next level.
Me thinks ellington should update his passport. But, hey – on the plus side, the euro is at all time highs.
Man-crush, complete… 😉
I still don’t understand why people are writing off Ty and Wayne. Do professors write off students who take summer internships? This is nothing but good for them: they are either going to get themselves a ton of cash, or learn what they need to do to get said cash. Gods for them!
Let me start by saying I love all of the boys on the team, right down to the fab five at the end of the bench who rarely take off their warmups. But throughout this whole situation, I really hoped for Tyler to return more than any of them. I put Ty and Wayne on about the same rung of the ladder and will be THRILLED if they do return, but I can’t even begin to put into words how excited I am that Tyler has chosen to return for his senior season. Maybe Gene Hansbrough is right…maybe we will have to kick him out of the school to get him to leave. 🙂
Still worried about that wing. I guess Danny, Graves will start and Ginyard will have to pose a threat to shoot, and we will bring Larry Drew in. I imagine (not like John Lennon’s imagine) that Larry will be needed for scoring as much if not more than for ball handling.
Josh,
Do what I am doing…don’t worry about that until the plans of the other two are confirmed.
Neither Lawson nor Ellington have anything to lose by doing what they’re doing. I suspect Ellington will be back, and Ty will take his chances on a mid second round pick like Jameson Curry did.
While they don’t have anything to lose, WE DO.
[…] already mentioned that Tywon Lawson is testing the waters, but apparently so will Wayne Ellington. Carolina is going to be a top five team with Hansbrough returning, no matter what the other two […]
I’ll say that if the other two leave, we should be a shoe-in for a 4th or 5th place slot in the ACC. That should be enough to garnish us with an ncaa bid, and possibly a trip to the sweet-sixteen, barring no injuries and some good fortune along the way. That’s not too shabby.
THANKS TYLER!! I am esctatic! Good luck Ty and Wayne, hope to have you back but work hard!
I am so glad Hansbrough decided to stay. Now i can stop checking espn.com on my phone at work every five minutes. I don’t understand either lawson or ellington entering the draft though. Lawson couldn’t make it through this season healthy and know he thinks he can handle a 82+ game season in the nba. He stock would be way higher if he came back, won a championship and/or played the entire season injury free. and ellington’s decision kinda scares me because we will miss his outside and midrange jumper alot because as far as i know we only have two power forwrds and a point gurad coming in next year. but also because this reminds me all too much of dare i say, Joseph Forte( i still remember the day he declared)… Ellington can improve so much with another year at unc. he could show the nba gm’s/ scouts that he can defend, handle the ball and most importantly be CONSISTENT…
This is a case of wants vs. reality, and hopefully Ty and Wayne have the right people talking in their ears over the next month. Both really “want” to be in the NBA, but the “reality” is they might not be ready (especially in this deep draft) to be selected where they’d expect. If they go about this in the right way over the next month, this could be a very good situation for both. 1) See if they can improve their Draft Position, while determining what they need to improve in their respective games 2) Leaving open the option to return to the NBDL, sorry college, if they don’t like their draft positions.
I expect both to return for their junior years when all is said and done.
I think we challenge once again with Duke in that scenario for the league championship. Frasor, Green, Ginyard, Tyler, Deon/Alex is much better than a 4th or 5th ACC team. We essentially played with this same team when Ty was sitting with the ankle, and Ellington wasn’t producing.
Great news! I’m hoping that Ellington and Lawson will return, but here’s to hopinh they take everything they learn and apply it no matter what they decide. While I personally hate the declare but not hire an agent rule, you can’t blame them for going this route.
I think we all know that Lawson will be told that he needs to work on his outside shot and Ellington needs to be a better defender and score by putting the ball on the floor, but I really hope that we could send Marcus Ginyard somewhere to work on a jump shot. I really love how the kids hustles, but I hope that Roy decides to start Danny Green and give him the majority of the playing time next season.
Let’s not get so hasty to have Ellington & Lawson back. I mean, if they don’t want to be here, let’em go. I just hope their leaving doesn’t have anything to do with Roy. Besides, we will still have a good shot to get the 4th or 5th spot in the ACC, providing the freshmen have great game. We all know 4-5 will give us a good shot at getting into the NCAA tournament, and if ALL the pieces fall into place and we have some good luck, we could be on our way to the SWEET 16, although we will rely on some luck with out talent level to get us there.
what are yall talking about we still be a preseason number 1-3 in the nation even without ellington or lawson, we are stacked and people like graves and green will step up and come on we have 7 foot center this year and a highly tauted point guard, 4-5th in the acc yall must be smokin that wacky grass i wanna know whos better in the acc, cause from what im hearing we would still be a 30 win team, they did a lot for us, but i wanna know who in the country would be better certainly not duke
Duke and Wake will have to be seriously considered for number one in the ACC. Duke is getting Elliott Williams who has the great ability to pass, shoot, guard, and especially what they need (Driving to the basket and finishing). Most Duke fans already have a precoceived notion that they are automatically number one in the ACC. Remember, the regular season championship came down to one game UNC vs Duke. They were right there with us. Now, you go throw Wayne & Ty out of our lineup, while adding in Elliott Williams for Duke, and that should tell you about that story and it’s finale. Now Wake is returning some players, and adding two freshmen who were stellar in their McDonalds games. They are in the mix as well. We don’t know enough about our freshmen to know what they can contribute to this team we have. Plus, other publications (The Czar) have us at number 3. I think that if we can finish around 3 in the ACC, then we will have to be considered a serious team that can make it (with our talent and a LOT of luck, of course) to the SWEET 16. I like what our season next year is shaping up to be. When you have an Elite 8 appearance, a Final 4 appearance, and add a Sweet 16 appearance consecutively, you are now one of the top teams in college basketball again. Go UNC!!!
last time im gonna disagree on this seriously, ok say we lose em both, duke is on the verge of losing two b/c of transfer, and graves is going to be a three machine next year, and not to mention just havign hansbourough alone gives you the shot to win the acc title and you add a 7 footer to mix and another 6-8 all american, and larry drew and quite possilby brad tinsley if lawson doesn’t come back, and at time this season deon and alex looked like they were going to explode they know what they will have to do, im sorry but raw talent and will im going with carolina b/c i can’t see duke beating us, they were right there with us, b/c of injuries had we had frasior that game we would have probably won, im saying unc no matter what final four detroit its there, and lets not forget who are coach is, but also lets be honest ellington will be back whose gonna draft him in the first round no one this year so don’t worry about unc making another title run cause they will
the only team i consider a threat in the acc is wake they will be amazing
Brandon, I appreciate your optimism. Now if we go and get Ellington back, then I can see us as a potential number one and a definate number 2 or 3. If we get Lawson and Ellington back, then it should already be written UNC #1 in ACC, and in the Nation. I certainly hope that is the case! I hate to rely on Graves at the 2, but if he can play defense, then we might be OK without Ellington. If Larry Drew can perform as well as any freshman we’ve ever had, then we can do it. If Zeller can run the floor and hit mid-range shots, then we can do it. I just don’t want to rely on perfection from freshmen to get us where we need to be, I am still skeptical that freshmen can perform at the level it will take to get us to a National Title. But if Wayne & Ty come back, the freshmen would have to stink to keep us from winning a title. Brandon, I don’t want to discourage you from disagreeing with me. If you’re not in-step with what I am saying, you SHOULD disagree. I hope your premise is right and mine is wrong for the sake of UNC basketball next year. I appreciate your post good buddy!!! Here’s to next year!!!
lol, atleast were cheering for the same team. unc 09 maybe i will say that, but 2010 no questions asked, roy becomes a dynasty, oh yeah and here to us catching kentucky we will in the next couple of years
I think we will have a great team with Tyler returning and the existing players that will are a lock for returning. Just look at the size we can put on the floor. I think Stepheson made great strides this year and he will be even better next year. Ginyard is an amazing defender and can usually lock a single high scoring opponent/player down. We should be in a great place, high profile player(s) returning and others gaining more and more experience. Just think of Green as a starter, more time on the court and the mindset that he has to make it happen. I think it’s all about havin to make it happen that drives him, no telling what could happen with other players but I like our potential starters without Ty and Wayne though with them we should really be set. Nothing could be finer.
Thank our lucky UNC stars that they didn’t get agents.
THF,
What are your thoughts on the chances that Ty and Wayne come back? If you were laying Vegas odds right now, what would the consensus be? Thanks..
This post will catch me hell. Let me begin it by saying I’m a Carolina Grad and a big UNC supporter. But, when I see something I don’t like, I’m going to say it. That’s part of what UNC taught me.
One poster earlier said that Ellington and Lawson don’t have anything to lose. I disagree. The lose character. Neither is good enough for the big time, despite their egos. Plus, they came to UNC, accepted a scholarship, and thus they owe UNC something more that just bailing ship.
Another poster wondered if it had anything to do with Roy. This, to me, is a telling question.
I recall Forte bailing ship too early. And where is he now? I didn’t like it when Wright bailed ship too early. And now he’s sitting on a bench somewhere? Oh, I guess they, and the others, are making money. That’s probably the main, and only, reason they bailed out.
What concerns me the most is the question by Roy. I happen to not see Roy as a God. He seems to coach by anger, not encouragement. And that Kansas sticker? One of the players, I think Ginyard, was quoted by the Durham paper recently as saying that the word Kansas makes him sick, that he can’t stand to even hear it. Now, he didn’t say it bothered him when anyone OTHER THAN ROY said it. He said it bothered him whenever he heard it. I imagine he, and I feel the others, didn’t like it when the coach kept talking about Kansas BEFORE and AFTER the game. And then there the report right here about what Roy said of Ellington’s three-point shot in the Kansas game – something like it was the worst shot he had ever seen. Now you know that left a good taste in Ellington’s mouth. But that’s the way Roy coaches.
Many seem to think that if Lawson and Ellington don’t like what they see, that they will come back and the team will be as great as ever. I don’t think so. These two people have turned their backs on the team, hoping for something big. If they don’t find it, when they come back they could be discouraged and disappointed rather than motivated, hot to play. And their teammates? Will they welcome them back with open arms?
When it comes to character in my view, I have to give high marks to Hansbrough. Of the three, he’s the only one I thought was actually justified to go pro. Yet he stayed. All the reports I’ve read indicate that by staying, he probably won’t improve his chances in the draft. He is what he is. Yet he stayed. Character. Commitment. Two features the other two apparently lack.
Sorry if this offends anyone. I wish I didn’t feel this way. But it’s what I see. I saw it not because I’m a UNC hater, but precisely because I love UNC, it’s my school, and I want it to be the best. And being the best means recognizing problems and solving them.
Howard
I gotta disagree with you, Josh. If Ellington and Lawson go pro, we return with a senior laden group that is pretty much the same group that went 12-4 in the ACC as freshmen. As Freshmen! That year we had a core team of Frasor, Ginyard, Hansborough, Green, Wes Miller, Terry, and Noel. This would be the same team, minus Wes Miller, Terry and Noel. But look who we have added: Stepheson, Thompson, Will Graves, Larry Drew, Zeller, and Davis. Plus those four freshmen are now seniors. Its true that this years freshmen will be question marks, but think about this rotation and what they did in 2006:
Starters:
Hansborough
Thompson/Stepheson
Ginyard
Green
Frasor
Backups:
Graves
the freshmen
I think you have to put this team at least on the same level as the 2006 team, if not higher. If we could go 12-4 in the ACC that year, why not this year when we will have the most experienced and tested squad in the conference?
Psycho T is coming. 🙂
I’m just glad the excruciating wait is finally over. Hey if they both go then great for them, but I seriously believe at least one will yet return for his junior year. Last time I checked the cupboard was still quite full, with an incoming class and Frasor hopefully 100% healthy next season it should be another very good one.
I would not dare to assume whether Lawson or Ellington lack in anything, but to imply they’ve just now come up short on character or commitment is short-sighted (especially after a 36-3 season). 19-20 year old student-athletes should be able to pursue their profession at the highest level – and we should not stand in their way to do it. This isn’t the 1970’s anymore, so get over it.
I had similar thoughts about Stackhouse leaving early in 1995, until I later learned how diabetes had raged through his family with unfortunate consequences. Put that shoe on your foot, if you will please.
Well there’s something to look forward to over the summer! 🙂
Hopefully Ty and Wayne choose to stay…it should be amazing year regardless
Best of luck to all players
Wow!! All you chicken littles sound like State fans. First, Lawson and Ellington have not officially left yet. Secondly, even if both leave, Carolina still returns the POY, a very talented and experienced team, plus add 3 very talented newcomers; the Heels will be fine. Finally, I still think Roy Williams will be coaching in Chapel Hill next season.
4th or 5th in the weak ACC? Please. Just like the Dean Smith years, Roys Williams doesn’t have a basketball team, he has a basketball PROGRAM that will compete for championships every year. No matter who leaves for the NBA.
Howard,
Ellington and Lawson owe something to Carolina because of their scholarships, what a load of crap. That is a selfish statement that goes against everything that Dean Smith and Roy Williams stand for, and I feel sorry for you if you truly believe that statement. And Hansbrough has “character” just because he decided to play basketball for your team one more year that is about as selfish and pathetic as you can get. Finally, get your facts straight, Roy never made any comments about Ellington after the Kansas game, those comments were last year about Green after the G’Town game. Learn how to read, when you root for the players who fulfill their obligations to the University of North Carolina. What a joke…
Well, the scholarship is given for a reason, though I think that a coach has some indication of a player’s position long before the end of the season. But Howard is right about the scholarship, as it could have been given to someone with more of a committment to remain at UNC. If our incoming freshmen play well, then we might not miss the big 2 that much. We can go all the way to the SWEET 16 without them!!
While I agree with you SCL11, it could be considered selfish to take a scholarship from a school and not fulfill your obligations to that institution that granted it to you. Great post Howard.
Yeah, Carolina didn’t get money, exposure, wins, championships, etc. out of Lawson and Ellington while they were using those precious scholarships that someone else with commitment and character could have used. Howard and Josh, you are two fools and I’m ashamed that you “call” yourself Carolina fans.
Questioning the character and commitment of two 20 year old kids that you don’t even know personally, just because they might not play for your team anymore is pathetic. Get a life.
One poster earlier said that Ellington and Lawson don’t have anything to lose. I disagree. The lose character. Neither is good enough for the big time, despite their egos. Plus, they came to UNC, accepted a scholarship, and thus they owe UNC something more that just bailing ship.
I have said this. In fact it is a gain for them either way. If they go through the process and raise their stock to the point they feel comfortable going pro, good for them. If they decide to come back then they have gone through a valuable experience which will help them down the line. I also think if they come back they will be plenty motivated to not only win a national title but play at a high level with an eye on their futures. There is certainly nothing wrong with that as long as it happens within the flow of the team. And for the record, IIRC scholarships are renewed annually. Both Lawson and Ellington said they are ending the semester in good academic standing and the door is open for a return. As far as I am concerned they have fulfilled their obligation to UNC for this academic year and if they choose to return then their obligation begins again.
Another poster wondered if it had anything to do with Roy. This, to me, is a telling question.
How so?
I recall Forte bailing ship too early. And where is he now? I didn’t like it when Wright bailed ship too early. And now he’s sitting on a bench somewhere? Oh, I guess they, and the others, are making money. That’s probably the main, and only, reason they bailed out.
Well thank you for that insightful foray into the hearts and minds of these young men. It is good to know that if you were ever given an opportunity to pursue a lifelong dream with a 6-7 figure salary involved you would be an oak and stand firm where you are. And pointing out Wright is silly, the jury is out on whether he made a poor decision. It would seem Forte did but with all of the storm clouds gathering around the Doherty program who knows how that would have turned out had he stayed. And feel free to point at all the other guys who “bailed” on the program that went on to very successful careers in he NBA. BTW, selective examples is a weak method for making a point.
What concerns me the most is the question by Roy. I happen to not see Roy as a God. He seems to coach by anger, not encouragement. And that Kansas sticker? One of the players, I think Ginyard, was quoted by the Durham paper recently as saying that the word Kansas makes him sick, that he can’t stand to even hear it. Now, he didn’t say it bothered him when anyone OTHER THAN ROY said it. He said it bothered him whenever he heard it. I imagine he, and I feel the others, didn’t like it when the coach kept talking about Kansas BEFORE and AFTER the game. And then there the report right here about what Roy said of Ellington’s three-point shot in the Kansas game – something like it was the worst shot he had ever seen. Now you know that left a good taste in Ellington’s mouth. But that’s the way Roy coaches.
I am not sure anyone is saying Roy is god and if you have issues with his coaching style you are entitled to them. As for the Marcus Ginyard quote, let’s take the full quote in context and see if we can draw more Stickergate out of it.
“It hurts every time we have to hear Kansas,” Ginyard said. “It hurts every time we think about it, every time we see that Sports Illustrated and every time we have to look at things like that. It hurts because obviously this team wanted to do more.”
Now it is not just hearing Kansas in general but see and hearing about Kansas winning the national title. That is the root of his pain, the fact they wanted to win a title and they did not but Kansas did. Nowhere in that can you possibly derive he has an issue with Roy over the sticker. Maybe he does but based on what we have seen of Ginyard in three years I doubt it.
As for Roy talking about Kansas, I seem to recall he was pretty adamant that the focus was on UNC-Kansas now and not his time there. I also do not recall Roy talking about Kansas after the game. Yes he stayed for the game, wore the sticker but that generated a lot of talk by everyone else but not Roy who pointed out that he did the same thing in 1993 when UNC beat Kansas and he stayed in NO to pull for UNC. So I am not sure what you are trying to get at bringing up the sticker issue other than implying it somehow forced Ellington and Lawson out the door. And the comment from Roy about a shot being the worst he had seen was him referring to the three pointer Danny Green took last year against Gtown with UNC up 10 and six mins left in the game. As far as I know Roy did not have anything to say about Ellington’s shooting in the Final Four. He did allude to players stepping up after Green and Ellington stunk up the place against Duke but after the Final Four he did not say anything about Ellington as far as I am aware.
Of course you really need to make up your mind which it is. Are Lawson and Ellington selfish SOBs who only want the money or are they verbally abused players who cannot trust their coach because he wore a Kansas sticker and he yells at them sometimes. Can’t be both.
Many seem to think that if Lawson and Ellington don’t like what they see, that they will come back and the team will be as great as ever. I don’t think so. These two people have turned their backs on the team, hoping for something big. If they don’t find it, when they come back they could be discouraged and disappointed rather than motivated, hot to play. And their teammates? Will they welcome them back with open arms?
Well apparently you only read the bottom of the article about Ginyard because you missed the quote earlier in that same piece where Ginyard says:
I would much rather not know and just read about it in the papers or see it on ESPN,” said Ginyard, who lives with Hansbrough. “It’s a personal decision that they need to make — what’s best for them. I just hope everybody makes the decision to come back.”
Ginyard makes it clear that while he hopes they come back he also thinks it is a personal decision based on what is best for them. And the fact he hopes they come back means he probably wants them to come back whether it is now or a month from now. The goal is to win a title and if they come back I am pretty confidence the team will pull together and make a serious run at it.
When it comes to character in my view, I have to give high marks to Hansbrough. Of the three, he’s the only one I thought was actually justified to go pro. Yet he stayed. All the reports I’ve read indicate that by staying, he probably won’t improve his chances in the draft. He is what he is. Yet he stayed. Character. Commitment. Two features the other two apparently lack.
It should also be pointed out that Hansbrough’s family financial situation is great and his decision was ultimately about what he wanted and this is what he wanted. Funny how Hansbrough making a personal decision concerning what is best for him is lauded as a character decision by you but the other two doing the same thing is not. It would seem you are more concerned that these players fulfill you ideals of what they should do rather than allowing them to exercise the freedom to pursue their own desires.
In the end I will begrudge no player for going after his dream and pursuing the opportunities afforded them. I hope both of them make smart decisions based on the hard facts and not be swayed by money or bad influences. The fact of the matter is these players have work their whole lives to be as good as they are. Yes they are talented but hours and hours of hard work goes into getting to this level. How anyone can call them out for lacking character or being disloyal because they want to reap the rewards stemming from the sacrifices they have made to play this sport is beyond me.
As for our UNC’s chances if both of these players remain in the draft.
First ask yourself: Is the ACC better, the same or worse than it was in 2006?
Now consider this: Without Lawson and Ellington the 2009 UNC team looks an awful lot like the 2006 UNC team except deeper and much better. In 2006 you had Frasor, Wes Miller, Reyshawn Terry, David Noel and Hansbrough with Green, Thomas, Ginyard off the bench.
2009 would have: Frasor, Ginyard, Green, Thompson, and Hansbrough with Stepheson, Graves, Drew, Zeller and Davis off the bench.
Which team do you think is better? The one with a bunch of freshman playing with Terry, Noel, and Miller or a bunch of seniors one of how is the reigning NPOY playing with Thompson, Stepheson, Graves and a group of talented freshmen.
I would take the 2009 team in a heartbeat and given that Duke still has very little inside presence, Wake will be talented but young and everyone else has various issues, I like UNC’s chances to still win the ACC very much.
But this is all premature until we know for sure what Lawson and Ellington are doing.
^Plus the 2009 team is still coached by that “unloyal tyrant’ named Roy Williams. That might help a little….
Hey Howard, I’m the one that said they didn’t have anything to lose and they don’t. I’m sure you’re a man of great character and would always choose character over money. However, if Lawson would have a great camp and somehow become a low first round pick and goes, good for him. Lawson wants to be a basketball player, Howard, and not a lawyer. So if given the chance to be on a team and make some big bucks, more power to him. Same for Ellington although I don’t think he’ll have the chance.
NCAA Bylaw, Article 15.3.3.1
One-Year Period. If a student’s athletics ability is considered in any degree in awarding financial aid, such aid shall neither be awarded for a period in excess of one academic year nor for a period less than one academic year (see Bylaw 15.01.5)
In other words, Lawson and Ellington have completed their obligation to the University of North Carolina by playing the season out. At this point either party can choose not to renew the scholarship. And just because you have eligibility does not mean you HAVE to use it. I had one year left in cross country eligibility and I gave it up because I was not happy with how was I running. I must also lack character to have bailed on the UNCG XC like that.
As I pointed out in an earlier post: who was the ramrod, stepping up his game appreciably, when Ty went down with the injury? Tyler will be back, whether or not Ty and/or Wayne are.
And I’ll say what I said when there were questions of Forte declaring in 2000 — I’d rather have him than not. Same with Ty and Wayne.
Whew! My posts now look like Dylan’s liner notes of “Bringing It All Back Home” compared to THF’s Holy Bible. Point: my brother (THF) laid it down and then some.
There’s really not much else to say…yet, I will anyways.
I want to address the issue of where the Heels, with their current lineup, might place in the ACC. I can only scratch my head when I see someone, I think it was Josh, predict that they will finish either 4th or 5th. Josh, either you are a pessimist or a fatalist. I can appreciate your desire to not inflate your excitement level (given the hit-or-miss nature of UNC’s best teams, historically), but c’mon buddy…
Duke is returning the same team, a year more mature, and with Elliot Williams. Fine. For their one decent recruit we’ve landed three. That’s all good if Duke wants to add a backup for Gerald Henderson when they really needed, wanted, but ultimately, could not land Greg Monroe (despite K getting the last recruiting visit of all coaches). Also, as one of our brilliant brethren pointed out earlier, they still have Greg Paulus at point. Thank goodness for that.
Wake will be both young and inconsistent…despite their strong recruiting class. Rice is returning for BC, which means Boston.com (Espn.com) will give both he and his lethargic teammates some exposure. Maryland added very little (recruiting wise) to what was a team with marginal talent. Miami and FSU are essentially clones of one another (if any Miami or FSU basketball fans wanna hate, well, mmmkay…five people may care), which is to say, let’s see how many opponents we can take to the floor and (hopefully) injure. Paul Hewitt will be fighting for his job at Georgia Tech and that is a shame. He has all of the entities you would want in a coach: smarts, can coach to all position players, can inspire toughness on both ends, and can recruit. Unfortunately, Tech doesn’t have a track record of sustaining their best recruits for too long. When Young went pro, although expected, it gutted Hewitt’s efforts to keep that program at or near an elite level (in the ACC). Speaking of coaches on the ropes…Sidney Lowe. What happened? The season that wasn’t for State. Virginia Tech’s season will be somewhere in the murky middle of the ACC, which isn’t what it used to be. Virginia and Clemson will head down similar roads to that hazy middle ground as well.
So, even though I didn’t provide Andy Katz like sources and info, I think my initial preview of the ACC season is okay. I mean, you don’t have to be an “expert” to predict that UNC could top that group.
I say UNC runs up 13-14 wins in the conference again without Ty and Wayne, who have gone from being part of The Big Three to being either the “Their Gones”, or “We Still Think They’re Swell” guys, or the “Bastards.” An abundance of talent returns to Chapel Hill, yet we are (collectively) acting like Red Sox and Yankee fans.
And Ty Lawson and Wayne Ellington are STILL on the roster 😉
Great posts guys! THF, while listening to Adam Gold this morning, he was saying that there was only one opportunity to “test the waters” so to speak. Meaning, if Lawson and Ellington come back for next season, they will either have to remain in college for a senior season, or enter the draft. They will not have the “testing the waters” option for a 2nd go round. Is this true? If that were the case, there is no way I would do that this year if I’m them. Also THF, I do want to say that your quote of players’ fulfilling dreams and such is irrelevant. As a contractor, I have to do a job based on what is outlined in my contract. If another deal comes up that I like more, I just can’t simply quite on my current contract to pursue that other more touted option. Now the NBA does allow people that reach a certain age to enter a draft. College universities allow players to leave their program without fulfilling any of their obligations. Their situation is not quite contractural in the sense of what I outlined earlier as what I do as a contractor. Still, scholarships are given out with the understanding that the recipient will do his duty to make their investment worthwhile. I feel as if both Ellington and Lawson have done that to a degree, but they are just sophomores, and I can stomach it a lot better if those obligations were considered through junior seasons. Good job guys, well, with the exception of one.
How is it irrelevant? They have great flexibility in their position and because of the way things are structured they get to evaluate themselves after every season to see if they want to continue to play college basketball or try to go out and make a living. I do not see how anyone wanting to pursue a goal can be considered an irrelevant point. It is really the only point that matters in terms of these decisions.
To answer your question, you get one shot to withdraw from the draft so if they come back, they either have to go pro after their junior season or stay four years.
What obligations have Lawson and Ellington not fulfilled? I think the University of North Carolina has more than received their fare share of ROI from this two.
THF, I meant your point of dreams and ambitions was the irrelevant one to the debate of “met obligations or not”, as a contract or an obligation is about what is outlined on the document, not someone’s aspirations, dreams, desires, hopes, wishes, etc. But that was a great posts and I appreciate all that you had to say in regards to these controversial topics. Dean, even if I don’t know what your optimism is grounded in, I sure appreciate it. Around my parts (chapel hill) people are real down on college basketball. Chapel Hill is full of a bunch of defeatists. You’d find this hard to believe given the presidential campaign looks good for the democrats. But they dislike Roy, and are still very angry towards Lawson & Ellington for their dissapearance in the Kansas game (although I thought they played pretty good, despite poor shooting from Ellington). And news that they are not committed to coming back has had quite a few fans say they wish they would go ahead and leave. Spend some time in the shops and restaurants, it’ll frustrate you. I am optimistic about next season like you are DEAN. I do think that Elliott Williams will solve a lot of inside issues for Duke. Wake has the potential to dominate the ACC as well. And if our freshman play spectacular, and Danny Green can play a full 40 with that aggression, we have a chance to be in the top 3 in the ACC right along with them. And that would be enough for us to get a seed in the NCAA tournament, and if everything comes together for us (providing a lot of luck as well) we could be on our way to finishing out the season in the SWEET 16 tournament!!! I am looking forward to next season!! Great posts THF and Dean! GO HEELS
Just so I get this out, I think it is better for the student athletes to see us cheer with optimism more so than with a sense of reality.
Elliot Williams is a 6’4″ guard, how does he solve Duke’s inside issues? Is he growing 4 inches over the summer. Dude go to bed, your getting stupider as you post.
You idiot, it is not about how tall he is. Unlike Paulus or Taylor King, Elliott Williams can drive to the basket and finish. We are concerned about scoring here, not height, you dumbass.
Josh-
We can’t overstate that these kids are 19-20 years of age. Perhaps if you, in your profession, were offered an exclusive workshop where you could consult with your fellow contracting studs & studettes, and you might actually have an opportunity to be recruited by a high-end firm (which would offer you a life-long contract that would pay for your children and grandchildren’s college education) and a stellar team of top-notch professionals…you’de probably entertain the thought right?
In the end, I think (the scenerio that I just explained) is an apt (rather wordy) metaphor for what Lawson and Ellington are doing. Let’s get this straight, Ellington is basically back. Lawson is probably 40/60 right now, but he will be humbled in the tryout sessions. If he is anywhere around 60/40, I don’t think he would want to take his chances on this year’s draft. I have to remind everyone that the liklehood of one of these two coming back is very good. I do this because I don’t want us, as a fan base, to feel as though we collectively gave up on these two if they come back. Ty Lawson should not have to play a season under the scrutiny of UNC fans, and nor should Wayne.
It is so easy for us to get all oogley over the former Big Three (May, McCants, and Felton) because they won a title. Yet, they were prime players in one of the most maligned UNC teams (2004) of the entire Dean/Bill/Doherty/Roy eras. That team beat UConn (national champs) and nearly beat Duke (Final Four) that year, but could have been so much better. Again, let’s not drop the anvil on these two kids.
I guess that Rashad McCants, Jeff McGinnis, Raymond Felton, Tywon Lawson shouldn’t have come here because they weren’t tall enough to score inside, even though they did it consistently.
You are right on Dean. Yes, I would entertain the idea. And I’d find a way to “oust” myself of that contract as well. But I wouldn’t expect the people on the other end of the contract to be happy about it. But you’re dead on target. I by no means agree with the assessment that they do not care about playing hard if they come back. There is plenty of reason (if not more) for them to play hard on this next go round than there was when they first stepped foot on campus
And yes Dean, a NC will heal a lot of ills.
SCL 11, it would have been better worded if you had said that I get “more stupid” as I post, not stupider. But I won’t define your smarts by your typing. If you are a UNC fan, you have to have some brights! Please don’t define my smarts by late-night posting. I am certain I would be Stupider. Sure hope I haven’t done too much damage to all of my UNC brethren. I love you guys and it has been a great ride this season, and will be next year as well. Good night!
Duke will be very very good next season. Laugh as you might, a healthy Zoubek can do some damage….he showed signs of this at the end of the season. If his foot is fine he will be a factor next year. As I already pointed out, we played some this season without Lawson (because of the injury) and without Elllington (inconsistency) and played well. I think the main factor next year with or without Ty/Wayne is whether Thompson and Stepheson can step up and play ball. Thompson needs to get in the game more, hangs out sort of like Wright used to do, and Stepheson needs to get rid of those hands of steel and learn how to catch a basketball. If that position improves considerably we will certainly be 1 or 2 in the ACC (Duke being the other), and are probably a final 4 team, while Ty is in the NBDL and Wayne watches bullfights in his spare time in Barcelona.
Chris, you make me laugh. Not about Zoubec though, you might be correct about him. I’m talking about Barcelona. Maybe I’ll go see him while touring the Big East.
Josh-
You do have the privilege of living in the heart of North Carolina basketball. Although I like the ambiguity that these post names provide us, I will tell you that I live in equidistiance from Bloomington, IN and Lexington, KY. I am sandwhiched by two college basketball powerhouse and equally fanatic fan bases. I watch the 2002 national championship game behind a bar (in a small bleacher unit in front of a huge big screen tv, complete with both a tarp and multiple kegs) in Bloomington (my sister went to IU) and my dad and I went to the ’03 and ’04 season openers for UK at Rupp.
On both occasions, I was surprised to see how much derision existed in both fan bases for their respective home teams. With traditions like Indiana and Kentucky, every fan is a coach, and every fan thirsts for a national title. You don’t need to justify your posts for not being optimistic, but perhaps the locals have tainted your perception of reality a bit too much. UNC’s level of popularity, on a national level, is at the level it was in the mid-80s, or even the mid-90s. I know that this is attributed to the bandwagoners who latch on to a team (particularly one with a successful tradition) after they win it all (as our boys did in 2005). I bring this up because there are some very perceptive/intelligent UNC fans across the country who, despite their love of UNC basketball, CAN view the team objectively. Therefore, I base my optimism on the premise that the Tar Heels will simply put the best ACC team on the court. Duke is no longer reloading and Wake’s season will end with (at best) 9-10 wins in conference. We see it every year, in that stud recruits come to ACC schools and light it up in the non-conference season, but stumble a bit in the ACC. There have also been numerous exceptions to this observation, but enough contrary performances to validate my perception that a lot of blue chip freshmen stumble in the ACC.
In summary, I feel your fustration, but I am not blinded by my optimism. It is more objective observation than anything else. UNC fields the best team, therefore, they are (right now) the clear favorites in the ACC. Sweet 16 dreams are also nice, but this team will make a run for the national championship.
Tyler has just given us the final piece we needed to secure the bridge from the Hansbrough era to the Strickland/Zeller/Davis/Wear Towers/K. Marshall (and whoever else) era.
All Elliot Williams does is replace Demarcus Nelson. He does not solve their Achilles Heel which is the lack of an inside presence that can compete with the Hansbroughs of college basketball. They do have a freshman big man coming but he is not the athletic sort. He will help and if Zoubek can stay healthy he can too. This is all assuming those Lance Thomas transfer rumors are just that rumors.
THF-
Is this freshman big man (incoming for Duke) the kid from Africa?
Good job Dean, THF!
Pre-draft camps won’t answer the questions about Lawson no matter how well he plays. NBA scouts want to know if he can handle the rigors of a three- and four-game week, and he’s already proven to be fragile. Pre-draft camps might help Ellington, but he’s so far down the draft board right now, the best he can hope for is late first round. Is that worth staying it it? I expect both of them back in Carolina blue next year, and then they will be solid first-rounders in 2009.
A lot of you guys must hate James Worthy, Michael Jordan, Antawn Jamison and Marvin Williams because none of them fulfilled their so-called “obligation” to stay for four years.
good to see you back Stranger!
Sometimes things get too black and white when people discuss points.
Thinking of leaving Carolina for the Pros doesn’t make Lawson or Ellington bottom of the barrel people. It just leaves a disappointment in my mind, one based on my thoughts about what making a commitment to Carolina means.
And sure, there might be good financial reasons to seek more money – family needs, etc. – but by not going Pro now in no way means they will miss out on that. And it doesn’t mean they won’t get to live their dreams. It just means they wait a year or two and then, possibly, earn even more, and live their dreams out in better style and with better skill.
The dead end road isn’t there if they stayed (except perhaps if they are injured). It just could possibly be there if they turned pro and weren’t really ready for it.
As for others who left early – the James Worthy, Michael Jordan, Antawn Jamison and Marvin Williams as examples mentioned – they did make it in the pros, but, yes, their leaving was a disappointment to me. How nice if they had stayed and helped Carolina continue it’s basketball tradition. It certainly doesn’t mean anyone should “hate” them – that’s way too strong. But I doubt that you could find many Carolina fans who were overjoyed to see them leave, who didn’t feel some disappointment that they wouldn’t get to see them the next year in a Carolina uniform. Just look at the joy being expressed at being able to see Hansbrough next year?
I, for one, am looking forward to next year. Should be interesting and fun.
Howard
Josh, “stupider” was used to emphazie the point, but I shouldn’t have expected someone who thinks a 6’4″ wing guard scoring in the paint equates to an inside presence to get understand that. I aologize if the joke went over your head.
Did Duke lack an inside presence last year, when they had Demarcus Nelson, a 6’4″ wing that could score inside the paint, in the lineup? Elliot Williams is just a replica of Nelson, and only a moron would think that improves Duke’s inside presence year to year. Continue posting though, I like reading what a 5th grader thinks about basketball.
Howard, it is beyond selfish to question a young mans character and commitment, just because they do not “continue the basketball tradition” in your eyes. What have these players been doing the past 2 years with 2 ACCT and Regular Season Titles, plus a Final Four, if they haven’t continued the Carolina tradition? You need help, I bet you require your children to payback all child support you provided for them in order to “fulfill their commitment” prior to them leaving home for college.
Howard,
I think the issue you have is you are holding to some fairly idealistic ideas of how players should act when the put on the uniform of a school and how college athletics should be. The problem is we are way past the point where players being committed to the school for loyalty and pride is the raging mentality. All of these players are essentially free agents in high school who get signed by major college programs that are semi-pro teams for all intents and purposes. Most elite players do not select schools based solely on the school and their playing basketball for UNC or anyone else is a means to an end for the most part. I do think that is what makes Hansbrough special because I think he might actually be cut from the cloth of which you speak and since leaving now versus leaving later was a even deal he chose to stay in school. In Lawson and Ellington’s case college is just part of the journey to get to the NBA and at this point they want to test how viable they are to pursue the goal.
You are a smartie aren’t you SCL11. When you have difficulty arguing or defending your position, you resort to name calling. That’s fine. But I made my best attempt to concede to you last night, if you reject that, then you obviously want war. I could care less about what arguments you want to fight out. I agree with some of your points, but name calling is below the frey. Do your best to stay out of that class SCL11. I know you’re probably a young man with a lot of anger and aggression. I understand that. But lets not get involved in name calling here. Remember, YOU drew first blood here, I am merely responding. Let’s stay above the name calling frey.
Josh Bowling Says:
April 25, 2008 at 11:08 pm
You idiot, it is not about how tall he is. Unlike Paulus or Taylor King, Elliott Williams can drive to the basket and finish. We are concerned about scoring here, not height, you dumbass.
Who resorted to name calling again?
I’ve defended my position and proved that your theory that “Elliot Williams improves Duke’s inside presence year to year” is a bunch a crap. If “drawing first blood” is disproving idiotic statments, then yes I “drew first blood”.
I disagree somewhat THF. There has to be some middle ground, else you may as well go to a farm system, and by-paas college altogether. It has to be a joint solution however, and the NBA seems to be finally willing to help out. As to player obligations, they in fact do have obligations outside of themselves. To their Coach, for helping develop them, to their team-mates, for say, taking a lesser role, to the fans, who help support the platform which makes their professional progression all possible. Not saying their primary obligation isn’t to themselves and their families, and it’s not their fault the system is the way it is. I prefer to see it changed for the good of the College game.
Good job SC11. Now leave it alone already. I am not convinced that an inside presence has to be from someone 6’10” or higher. Rashad McCants can score inside better than Zoubec from Duke. Danny Green can block more shots than him as well. Remember, we are on the same side here. No need for anyone on this site resorting to name calling, including myself. I have a feeling I was watching UNC basketball before you were born. Not that it makes me more educated than you, I am sure it doesn’t. But I know my intellect on college basketball is superior to that of a 5th grader. However, if you find it more intellectually interesting to listen to a 5th grader, then do. Maybe you guys might have more in common than some of us on this site. I do not get any thrills by arguing with any one on this site, as we all love UNC basketball. However, some things warrent debating because the indifference is such you have to reach a conclusion about some topics. I am sorry we don’t see eye to eye about this one, as you probably have an overinflated idea about how good we will be next year w/o the big 2, and I probably have an underdosed view about how good we will be on the same hand. Forgive me if I have wronged you in any way on this topic, and I agree with you on some points, of couse, my 5th grade intellect is not one of them. Good post.
I, like you BigGame, always want to see improvements in the College game, even at the expense of the professional league if it has to come to that.
are you kiddin me–the NBA needs all the help it can get–it would be to their benefit, not their detriment.
I agree BigGame, especially about this topic at hand. In my own personal interest, the College game is superior to the pros, well, at least UNC is superior. The more seasoned players the NBA can get, the better for them, and the better for us. I was big on the pro basketball around 99-03. That’s when UNC basketball didn’t interest me that much, and I got to see all of the former Carolina stars shine in the NBA. But when Roy came back to town, it was all UNC going forward.
NBA over UNC? Alas, the heresy in that statement is too much! UNC’s run to the Final Four in 2000 failed to catch your interest, what’s up with that? I can almost understand losing interest during the 2001-2002 season. But not quite. How a life-long fan just fades that easily during the lone bad stretch in 40+ years is beyond me. Maybe that’s just me. The fact that J. Williams, Scott, and Manuel stuck it out to win a title in 2005 speaks to those players staying committed.
I think I have also grown “stupider” reading some back/forth comments.
I hear ya TX Tarheel! Well, for some reason I wasn’t as big on the players during that 2000 run, but I was sure proud of the way they played in that post season. If it wasn’t for that dang Mike Miller, we could have beaten that Florida team and went to the finals. I just found more excitement out of watching Carter, Jamison, Stackhouse, and Wallace in the NBA. I by no means left the tarheels altogether. I am, like you, very proud of Jawad and Jackie for what they did. That was definately a BIG benefit to UNC and a testament to what it means to be a Tarheel for doing what they did. It was also crucial to our 05 tournament victory. Thanks guys for sticking it out.